Speaker 2 0:00

Hello, this is Rambles and Shambles with Ana. Today I'm chatting with Jonas. He is an award-winning cinematographer at big word, who's studied and worked across the US and Europe and has a very clear-eyed view of how technically demanding and competitive filmmaking actually is. He is also fiercely competitive at air hockey and darts. But before we get into film school and what it really takes to survive in this industry, what was your favorite subject at primary school?

Speaker 0:26

Primary school. I would say math.

Speaker 2 0:28

Math?

Speaker 0:29

Yeah. I'd say math was my favorite subject until I graduated. And then you ended up into the creative industry. People I don't know. People say this is a creative job, but I it's I think it's very logical and easy.

Speaker 2 0:46

It's simple, it's easy.

Speaker 0:48

That's why that's why it's so competitive, because it's so simple. You know, during my MFA, I talked to uh a famous DP, yeah, cinematographer, DP is the same thing. And he told me, Yeah, you know, sometimes I don't really know why I get booked for anything, because this job is so easy. It's gotta be something about you. Well, anyway, math is the answer.

Speaker 2 1:07

So what did you do at race test? Were you playing sport, games, building things?

Speaker 1:11

Uh I in the summer I go swimming, you know, in Alpine Lakes. Uh I bike and I I play soccer. Football. We're in Australia, it's not that legal. I don't know what to call that now. And I play the guitar. And the guitar. That's actually what I do the most. And the drums.

Speaker 2 1:25

And the drums.

Speaker 1:26

And the piano a bit.

Speaker 2 1:27

Okay.

Speaker 1:27

But mostly the guitar.

Speaker 2 1:28

So were you the kid who liked rules and structure or the kid who liked figuring things out?

Speaker 1:32

I don't think I was the rule and structure kid. I was always very rebellious towards the teachers. And the the teachers always they hated me, but they, you know, I had good grades, so they couldn't hate me that much. You know, like they weren't allowed to hate me, but they kinda hated me because I was always fun of them or you'd pick on people a lot.

Speaker 2 1:50

Or or you know, if So then moving to high school, did you know you wanted to study film or did that come later?

Speaker 1:56

In high school I I had no idea. When I was 18, I was considering to become like a TV journalist. Then there was a program which was audiovisual publishing, which was basically TV journalism. So that's why I studied that. But I think when I was 18, I was too scared to even think about trying that because I know I knew how hard it was to even get into these film schools. Uh you know.

Speaker 2 2:19

So so how did that happen? You started studying and then you decided to switch.

Speaker 2:23

Yeah. It I mean, right after I started studying the TV journalism, I thought it was terrible. But they had um there was a partnership between my undergraduate school and the University of Memphis in the US. So I did one exchange semester there, and that kind of revived my energy for staying in the program and because I really liked studying in America. I really did not like studying in Germany, to be honest. So, long story short, I came back to to Germany and finished my undergraduate, and so now I was looking for a master's degree. So I told my professor in America who had met during the exchange semester, I told him about it, and he was like, Yeah, how about you why don't you get your master's here and we'll pay for it? And um and you can say we got we got a master's in film production. That's that could be cool. That could interest you. And I say, Oh yeah, cool, that sounds good. Let's do that.

Speaker 2 3:07

So you just decided to pick up your life from Germany and go study a master's in the US.

Speaker 3:12

Yeah, yeah, because I was skeptical, but I really liked the the undergraduate experience there, you know, in the US, they make you work, you know, so you f at least you feel like you're learning something. And you get you get one-on-one time with the professors like I became friends with all my professors in Memphis. You know, I like I after I graduated, I slept at my professor's in my in his guest house for two weeks. And I I shot his film, you know, he did the documentary, I shot it, I was a student. And in Germany, it was like you're one out of I don't know how many, and no one gave anything about you.

Speaker 2 3:42

So when you were in Germany and you decided to look at doing um an exchange as an undergraduate, you know, was it because you were bored in Germany or you were looking for something different? Like, how did you just one day be like, oh, I just want to go to the States and study now?

Speaker 3:56

To tell you the truth, it was it was pretty much a coincidence because I didn't even know that the school had that partnership with the exchange program. And then I found out, oh, it's Memphis. And you know, arrogant, annoying, cocky as I was, I thought, oh, Memphis, I mean that's that's like nowhere's land. Like, at least if I want to go to the US, it should be on the coast, it should be California, or it should be New York, or maybe Florida. And then Memphis. So I would I wasn't even gonna apply. And then I realized, wait, all the other people applied to it, it must be good. Yeah. So like they were they were all kept talking about it, you know. I hope I'll get it. I hope I'll get the funding. So, you know, the day before the deadline, I was like, okay, whatever, I'll I'll do it. And I wrote all the sh uh stuff that you needed to to apply it the day before. So that's how I how I got that. And then I really, really liked studying in the US.

Speaker 2 4:43

Actually, well. And so the opportunity to do your master's here, how did your family take the fact that you were going to move from how many years to study in the US now?

Speaker 4:52

I mean, for my for my father, I think he thought it was cool because he wanted to study in the US himself when he was my age when he was my age.

Speaker 2 4:57

And what surprised you most about moving to the States?

Speaker 5:00

Okay, I'll I'll be honest. The thing that surprised me the most culturally, actually, was that people really approach you. That's a very nice thing about uh bull in the US. People are very open, I think. Uh and they and they approach you and they, you know, try to make you part of a team. Um and the other thing was just this level of friendship that you could get between a student and professors. That's just that would never happen in Germany. You know. Um, but uh in Memphis it happened. And in Florida, it also happened, you know, my for my second masters.

Speaker 2 5:33

One wasn't enough.

Speaker 5:35

I didn't feel like I I was ready to get a job or anything, you know. The film industry is very competitive and uh I just didn't I just I didn't feel like I knew I knew much, to be honest. So that's why I thought, okay, I'll specialize on something. Everybody knows that you know everybody wants to be a director. I wanted to do something where I have some hard skills because directing is our soft skills. And you know, because directing is the ability to talk to actors, make actors do what you need them to do. That's directing. It's not, you know, it's not pointing a camera or anything, it's talking to actors. And uh I wanted something that was a little bit more tangible, you know. And I wanted something where you can be hired at. The dean of the film school in Florida, he'd said to me, specialize in cinematography because a director, everybody can be a director, it's very easy. You just need a hundred or two hundred or three hundred thousand dollars and you make a movie and then you're a director. So if you want to be a director, just get money. But uh if you want work, do the cinematography.

Speaker 2 6:28

So the reality of film school, was it harder or easier or different to what you expected when you did your second master's?

Speaker 6:35

It was harder because the the program in in Florida was really, really intense. I mean, I've never worked this much. It it was like in my undergrad, I barely had to do anything. You know, it was like a cliche student life. And in the master, my first master's, it was you had to do a lot more, but it was still very simple. And then the MFA was just physically so intense because I shot five thesis films. It was uh six days of shooting per week, and in America a shooting day is 12 hours plus lunch, so like effectively 13 hours, and the drive to work doesn't count, so effectively like 15 hours. And then on the day off, you had to do equipment checkout and production meetings. So there was basically so it was like 84 hours a week, really it was like that, you know. There was no time to cook or anything. So it was really like that. But I mean I love that actually. I I like be I liked having that that you know, that was structure. Uh I I liked that, but that was really, really intense, you know. Because before I went to study at Florida State University, which is in Tallahassee, I went to look at the city and was like, no, I'm not gonna go here. Like, there's nothing. There's just a university and nothing. And then when I was there, I realized it doesn't matter because you've got no time anywhere in this building every day while you're on set, you know. But again, it's just I think it did require a lot of discipline to do it.

Speaker 2 7:56

Yeah. And what do you think people underestimate about how much discipline and hard work is required in this industry?

Speaker 8:02

I think what some people d maybe don't realize is that this job is different from, you know, being a lawyer or an engineer or something like that, in that you graduate and you were nothing before you went to school and you're still nothing. You know, you're still a nobody. And just because you got an MFA or any degree, no matter what school, you know, even if you go to the top-ranked school, like uh AFI, American Film Institute, you know, they usually show up at the top. It it just doesn't matter. No one's gonna give you a job because of that because they still think you're green or you're nobody, you know nothing. I think for Americans this is hard because they pay like $100,000 in tuition, you know, and stuff like that. And then they go on set and they can be lucky or they're they're they're lucky if they get like a camera utility position or a production assistant position and they make minimum wage, you know. And that's I think that's unique. Like no law, nobody who studied law or math or physics will work for a minimum wage, right? But if you went with the film industry, you're you're like you're happy. Oh, cool, I got I got a job. At least I got some money. You know, uh somebody's paying me to do this. And as you know, you you you have the highest academic degree, but what your job really is, is you know, you are here to uh move a monitor, unplug it, and plug it back in.

Speaker 2 9:16

And so what's an MFA?

Speaker 9:18

So MFA is Master of Fine Arts. So in America, that's the highest degree that you can get in the field of arts. So an MA, Master of Arts, is some is a degree that is not practical but theoretical. So actually, my MA was communication. You know, so you do like theories of persuasion, media effects on people, stuff like that. Um an MFA is like a proper arts degree. It's like you do it. You know, you know, you don't think about social effects of what you do, but you actually learn how do you light something, how do you shoot something, how do you I mean the whole purpose of it is to learn how to create emotion. That's actually the job. You know, that the job is how do you make people empathize with a fictional character? How do you shoot that, light that, and direct that so that people will feel something as the whole purpose of it? Make people feel something.

Speaker 2 10:04

You've gone back to teach at universities. Why do you like doing that?

Speaker 10:07

Well, you know, I mean, I I had graduate assistantships, you know, so I did teach in Memphis. It was part of like part of the tuition where it was I had to teach. But I I did enjoy that too. I mean, I kind of enjoy showing these kind of things to people. Uh and if there's real, you know, curiosity, I I I do enjoy teaching.

Speaker 2 10:27

But do you like giving back to students and showing them what's possible or I don't know, you know, I I I almost feel guilty sometimes.

Speaker 10:35

If I were if I were running a film school these days, I'd feel kind of guilty to take people's money because the state of the industry is so bad. It's like you make people believe in that and you you you y you make them think that I i if they understand the risk, the the risk reward ratio for this profession is insane. You know, it it's it's like in the stock market and you only pick companies that make no profit, but you think, well, maybe they'll make profit in 20 years and you put all your money on those companies. You know, that no sane person would probably do that, right? And that's like going to film school today, you know. I think in the 80s, 90s it was different, but now it's like that, I think. But I do enjoy when there's real curiosity from the students when it happens.

Speaker 2 11:16

Yeah, I enjoy the 101 writing course in the garage.

Speaker 11:22

Against your uh I just forced you to do that.

Speaker 2 11:26

And what do students often underestimate about working or studying in film? I love the rate my professor comments that you got about marking attendance.

Speaker 11:37

Well, you know, that's uh so yeah, so I I got very bad scores on rate my professor uh because I was so strict to them, you know. If they were on the phone, I'd be like, hey, you can't have your phone, and you know, and uh if they were sleeping, I'd wake them up or no, like crazy things. Like you're paying for class or awakened. Yeah, I don't get you know, it's that that's that's the thing, you know. In America they pay for class. So when I taught in America, I feel I always felt a little guilty. You know, when they wrote something really bad and I f I I give them back grade, I feel guilty because like, oh, but you paid for it. You uh and I'll give you a bad grade. It's you know, it's against your service idea. I feel like in America, universities are turning into a service sort of industry. But in Germany, I'm I'm actually I I'm okay to give them back grades because I'm like, you get this for free, you ungrateful child. So uh, you know, uh try a little harder.

Speaker 2 12:29

And I think you were talking about studying and and attendance and some of the examples that you had of arriving on time and the importance of that in the right.

Speaker 12:37

Oh, right, yeah. Um people have to realize this is a the film industry, although I think it has a big cultural impact as a business, it's a tiny, tiny business, right? It's it's like the revenue of the film industry is smaller than one single insurance company in the world, right? Like one insurance company makes more money than all the film industry together. And yet nobody talks about insurance companies. So it should go with insurance companies. And people don't go to insurance companies, cool. Anyway. But because it's so competitive, you know, you've just got to get the basics. And that is sh showing up on time and trying to do it. You know, people are very I think people are very accommodating. If I have somebody on sets who doesn't who's not experienced or doesn't know how to do their job very well yet, that's totally fine. You know, I really don't mind if you if you care, if I see that you're trying, if you make an effort. And that's that's the thing, you know, in Florida, we would at the in film school, we'd be they they take pictures of us at the time we we showed up on set. And if you were late for a certain number of times, you would just be out of the program or you'd be on probation, you know, or you'd get serious penalties. And that makes sense because when you actually go to work in the film industry in in California, well, you know, if you're late once, it's okay. You know, you buy a bottle of beer for the whole crew. If you're late a second time, you don't have to bother coming back because there's 500 other people who could can do the job because the truth is it just requires some discipline. So it's it's really about that. And that that I think is is the hardest thing to make the students understand.

Speaker 2 14:02

Yeah, that sounds rough. So, how did you actually get your first job in the industry?

Speaker 14:08

So, I mean, the very first job was my my professor in Memphis. He asked me, he was doing a documentary about this famous opera singer, named Callan Asperian, and he asked me if I wanted to shoot it because he his back was hurting. And then he watched me the first day and I was like, okay, can you just shoot the whole thing? Oh well. So so that was the first uh So injure your professor. Yeah, exactly. And then and then they'll hire you. That was the first one. And then that's the one benefit to going to a film school and going to a prestigious one, is if you want to have their network, you want to use their network. And so if you go to a film school that has some history, they will they will hook you up with alumni. And the the alumni will give you your first entry jobs. And and so they usually bring you on, and then it's whatever job you first got on there, you will meet people on the set, and they will be like, Oh, I gotta shoot next week. I mean, we need a second AC, remember this guy. So it's also whatever you do first is kind of what you will end up be doing for the whole time anyway. So if you work in the camera department or grip and electric, which is the lighting department, it's not like a normal it's not like a normal career where you will that will mean that you graduate to become a DP, you know, or an operator, because that that's higher in the hierarchy. That doesn't mean that. It if if you work as a second AC, you'll always work as a second AC, or maybe you work as a first AC, but it doesn't mean that you ever upgrade. So people who want to become a DP or a cinematographer, at some point, that's what I did too, is like, I'm I'm not gonna do these jobs anymore. I stopped doing these jobs. I will not only do DP jobs. And so a lot of times that means now you will be without income for one to three years because you don't because it's very hard to get these jobs. Uh so what the film school does is if if it's a good one, you get the chance to build a portfolio. Uh-huh. Right. So it you so you can persuade some people, hey, I got some skill, you know, because people look at your at your reel, you know, they look at what have you done.

Speaker 2 15:53

So you studied mostly for the network.

Speaker 15:55

Yeah, you know, and that that that was kind of stupid, I guess, on my part, because I got my first base in Munich and my second base in Los Angeles. But for my first base, studying in the US was kind of stupid because they don't have a network in Germany. So it was really hard actually when I left the US during COVID, and I'd been there for almost seven years at that point, and I left during COVID and I moved to Munich in Germany, and I didn't know anybody, you know, and this is an industry that is 99%. Who do you know? Really 99%, you know. So, you know, I wrote to tons of production companies and uh tried to, you know, meet some directors, and I I looked up film schools in Germany, I look up their alumni list and try to stalk people, see what they were doing, where they are, uh, and what kind of stuff they've been doing, and then I would cold, colt, message them and be like, Hey, do you want to hang out? Do you want to grab a coffee? You know, that's what they always say in LA. As in, do you want to work together eventually if the coffee goes well? If the coffee goes well.

Speaker 2 16:46

And how did you deal with a lot of the rejection of not getting a job and not having anyone interested to have coffee with you? Because you have too much milk in your pocket.

Speaker 16:55

I think I was I I was kind of lucky how quickly I got access to crew jobs in LA. I met a few people who have access who had access to a lot of jobs, so they could give me a lot of jobs. But for DPing, if one out of ten people writes back to you, that's a success. You know, if you if you submit your film to festivals and you submit to a hundred festivals and five take your film, that's a success. I my my problem I I'd say is I'm not that much I'm not that good at you know going out and doing the networking. But that is part of the job. I always knew that's part of the job, but it's just I don't like that part of the job and I don't want to do that part. But that's the part that gets you the jobs, right? So it's it's it's necessary, but it's not the fun, it's not the fun part.

Speaker 2 17:40

Yeah. So you're more passionate about actually just delivering good work.

Speaker 17:42

The truth is also it's a lot of luck too. If you look at all the people, uh the famous DPs or directors who made it, if you want to put it like that, they took a risk at some at some point and they made a movie that was just immensely successful with festivals or you know, won some major awards, that started their career. So you basically just you need this one kind of breakthrough project a lot of times.

Speaker 2 18:03

Was there a point where that rejection almost made you question continuing?

Speaker 18:08

Oh yeah, constantly. All the time. I mean, it's like I said, you know, it's doing this work, it's such a gamble, you know. I mean, I love doing it, and when I shoot something, it's a great job. Um, but of course it's something you may have months of no income and then you have income again, and yeah, and you know when when when you get a lot of jobs, you feel like, oh yeah, this is great, it's fantastic. And then, you know, and then come the winter months and nobody shoots during the winter time, and you think, okay, well, that's normal. And then, okay, is it normal? You know. So you of course you have that stress factor because you're a freelancer. But I mean, I always wonder if it's if it's a smart choice because it's because the truth is that this industry has been in decline for 20 years, you know, and it's not gonna get any better, most likely. And right now everybody's scared of AI, obviously. So I think it'll get worse before it gets better, if ever, you know. So it's it's uh it's riskier than ever to do it now.

Speaker 2 19:01

And how do you keep your mindset positive to keep going even though you know the industry is declining? That's a good question. And your answer can't be chocolate milk.

Speaker 19:10

I think the I think the joy that I actually get out of shooting is enough to put a veil of silence over the big risk that is actually there. Like cloaking it, you know. It was a bit of my safety net that I got an MFA instead of just an MA because I got the MFA because it it allows you to teach at university because it's the highest degree in the arts. So it's like uh at a university, it's equivalent to a PhD, so you can become a professor if you want to. So that was always sort of if it gets too hard, or if the industry dies, or because there are other risks too, you know. My job has a physical component too, you know, like you gotta be able to walk, you gotta be able to move with the camera on your feet for 12, 13 hours a day when you're on set. So there's there's that component too. So you want to have some sort of safety net, or at least I did want to have that. And that's maybe when I'm 60, maybe I can't hold a camera anymore, so then I'll I'll go to university.

Speaker 2 20:03

Yeah, cool. And do you have any favorite projects or favorite films you worked on?

Speaker 20:08

My my favorite projects were all actually commercial, which is kind of a pity because everybody works on the commercial has a lot of fun, but of course, it's the difference is you're you're working on something that ultimately nobody wants to see. Right? Like you try so hard to make it look cool and to make it look good and make something special. And then of course, and not that I don't do that either, you know, like you're on YouTube or wherever and it says skip and you click skip, right? So I'll I'll do that too. I understand, you know.

Speaker 2 20:34

I never thought about it like that.

Speaker 20:36

Yeah, yeah. But it's uh it it's those projects. I'd say my my two favorite ones were one was a beauty commercial. Beauty is like the creme de la creme, you know, it's like the coolest thing you can do commercially as a DP is either it's it's beauty or automotive. Because there, everybody has a desire to make it perfect. It's gotta be perfect. The lights, the the production design, the makeup, it's gonna be perfect. That's that's a luxury you don't have in in narrative filmmaking, you know. In narrative, you're trying to make it within the budget, as good as you can, get it, you know. But a lot of times that ends up it's maybe the most efficient way, it's not necessarily the most beautiful way or the best way. I did one commercial where it was about what would the world be like without this product? It's it's a very unsexy product. It's like uh they make screws and some small mechanical device, you know, that is in virtually any anything. Like it's in cars, it's in the fridge, it's basically anything that's electronic. So the guy wakes up in the morning because uh a rooster goes cockle doodle-doo because he has no alarm, because alarm needs that device. And then he goes to work, but his car doesn't have a starter, so he has to push it down the hill and then jump in, because that's how he gets his car started. Uh and then he has no brakes, brakes needed to, so he at the end he takes on a parachute, throws, tosses it out, you know, like a like a jet, and then he the car stops because it catches air. You know, and that that shoot had so many challenges. We wanted to shoot everything for real. There's no CG. Okay, there's a tiny bit of CG for fake rain a little bit, but almost nothing. Almost 99% OCG. And so it was, you know, the fun of figuring out how to do that. How do we make it that it's that it looks like the car is actually breaking because of a parachute? He doesn't have a lawnmower, so instead he has a sheep, but it's like in a contraption, you know. So you're pushing the sheep. So how do you make the sheep do that? You know? And um the sheep real. Yeah, yeah, we had we had we had we had a rooster, we had a sheep. I think there were uh other animals too. But no animals were harmed to they weren't harmed, you know, but it's just like you need 20 takes because it was you know, it's a commercial, so it's gotta be perfect, right? So the last shot of the commercial is we see the house. Now, you know, it was all a bad dream. They woke up, you know, and now we see the house and it's this fancy smart home luxury house, and we see it from the outside, and all that lights are on, and and we pull back, and as a little joke, when we pull back, there's the sheep in the foreground, and oh, was it a dream, you know? Like that, that's that's a joke, right? The camera goes back, and the moment the camera goes back, we want the sheep to look towards the camera. But like, you know, that's a timing thing, you know. So like it it was like 25 takes, you know, and it had to be it had to be right during blue hours, you know, so right after the sun sets when the sky is still magenta bluish, so you don't get black sky because that doesn't look good. And so we only had a certain amount of time for the sheep to do that, you know. So this is the animal coach, it was like, I think the sheep's name was Retta or something like that. It was something with the G, I forgot. And she was like, you know, she was trying to make the sheep look into the camera. So, you know, uh yeah, no, that was probably my favorite project, I'd say.

Speaker 2 23:29

Okay, I like that. What is it like working with other people on set? What do you love about working with other creatives?

Speaker 23:35

I think because these projects and you set up these challenges, it's very rewarding when you actually get it to work, you know, because it's more likely that it won't work, you know. So it's it's it's kind of a it's thrilling when you you did the planning with the whole team and actually it worked. And you're almost surprised that it worked. You know, like you you're always fighting uh against so many obstacles because it's not a very profitable industry in a sense. So for example, last summer we did a commercial and we we had we wanted to shoot in the city center of Munich in some historical buildings. Uh, and that's really hard to get the permit unless you're got endless money. I just know it it took weeks and weeks and riding back and forth between the producers and and people from the city who give the permit and the insurance company and all that. And then we actually managed to shoot there at the time that we wanted, because you're outside, so you have to make the schedule so that it actually matches the sun, because I can't put the sun where I want it to be, right? It won't stop for me. Quite annoying. Damn Munich. Yeah. But uh so I'll give you an example. So in the shot, the model, she walks down this story court in Munich, and she walks down, she does this power walk thing. So here's all the things that have to be right in that moment. She has to get the timing right. Uh her face has to be right, her hair has to stay in the right position. Okay, so we can't really control that. The camera's on a dolly, so the dolly grip has to get the timing right too. He has to get the speed right, match her speed, match the speed we talked about. I'm not doing the focus, right? The first camera assistant is doing the focus, he has to get it right. I'm operating with the camera, I have to get it right too. I can't, you know, get a jerk in it, or I have to keep her in the in the in the perfect frame, you know. And the sun has to be there too, you know, no cloud. The sun has to be in the right position. We only have a certain amount of time, right? So all these things have to be perfect in that moment. So when you actually manage to do that and everybody did it right, it's a big surprise. And therefore, it's a very thrilling thing that you do together, you know. So I think making movies is always a always this bonding thing because you're working against the odds always. And and that's why it's fun to come up with come up with solutions together. It's it's never, it's never, oh, we want to do this, so we do this. No, it's always we want to do this, but we can't because the sun can't. Because of the sun, or because of money, or because of the government, or because of whoever, you know. So we have to do it a different way. But is this a good way? Well, this is this good enough. So that's what you figure out together. That's the fun.

Speaker 2 26:03

And was there a project that you worked with people that you weren't too happy with?

Speaker 26:09

Yes. The the problem usually comes when when you have people who want to who want to cut corners because they think they know better. They don't like, so for example, we did uh a film and the producer said we don't need a script supervisor. We don't need a first uh AD, a first assistant director, is a person who ru who coordinates between the departments, I said. And we don't uh we don't need this position, this position, this position. They're all useless. You know, they're all not necessary, you know. It's this per person's attitude. Of course, the shoots is terrible if you do that. And the quality is is horrible in the end, you know. But I think the worst thing, the worst thing that happened was we shot uh we we shot a movie and in the scene it's it's it's this training montage of five tough girl fighters and they're like elite soldiers and they're supposed to be in a room and a smoke grenade get goes off. And so the normal way you would do that is with by a smoke machine, right? Because that's safe. But for some reason the producer thought it would be a good idea in this small room to actually literally take a smoke grenade, like ignite that next to us.

Speaker 2 27:18

Oh yeah. Sounds right.

Speaker 27:20

So after three seconds, of course, everybody was just coughing and somehow trying to make it out of the room, and that was just absolutely insane. You know, that was how the guy operated. You know, it it it was I think I gotta get my lungs checked, but it was it was after that the camera was almost basically broken.

Speaker 2 27:39

Oh wow.

Speaker 27:40

Because the that that smoke grenades residue, whatever they put in that, I don't know how it works. It got into the fan of the camera, you know, the camera would suck it in. So like you could see the whole camera was yellow on the inside. You know, it was completely clogged. So you can only imagine what everybody's lung must have looked like. So you sometimes get people, sp I think especially in Los Angeles, who are like that about safety. That actually happens pretty often. You know, that's that that's how accidents happen.

Speaker 2 28:07

Yeah, occupational health and safety is actually.

Speaker 28:09

Yeah, and that's that's something that always gets or very often gets ignored in in the film industry. Because people are like, well, you know, this is for fun and this is passion, and we got no money, but we want to make this movie, so I don't care. If if we do it the safe if we do it the safe way, it's more expensive. We'll just do it the risky, dangerous way. That's sort of I think that's a lot of times in LA, that's the mentality.

Speaker 2 28:30

So you've won a few awards. Which one are you most proud of? Um Don't say the smoke grenade one.

Speaker 28:37

You know, if I'm if I'm honest, I I'd say it's not quite an award, but the one I'm the most proud of would probably be the because I crack couldn't I can't believe they gave it to me. Would be the German Academic Exchange Service is a highly regarded public program that funds graduate students when they go abroad. It's very competitive. They they will fund you, even though you already have funding, it's it's merit-based. And so I went to do my master's in Memphis, right? At the University of Memphis, and they already gave me a full tuition waiver and a stipend on top. And I thought, wow, this is cheaper than studying in Germany. Like, because in Germany I at least I have to pay for my living, right? After they read my motivational letter and grades and all that. I'm like, yeah, we'll we'll do the interview on that day. And I wrote to them, sorry, I'm not available on that day. Uh I gotta shoot. I got a little weekend project, something like that, you know. And I thought, surely that's the end of it, right? And they were like, I thought maybe if I'm lucky, they will reschedule. And they were like, Oh, okay. Well, we awarded you the the scholarship anyway. I thought, wow, that that works.

Speaker 2 29:49

You must have been good at uni.

Speaker 29:52

I would say I would say that one. I think these film awards, honestly, if you do your work, actually you know if it's good or not.

Speaker 2 29:59

Okay.

Speaker 30:00

And it's more fun, it's more fun to see people react to it than you know if it worked or not. If you have a project and you're at a festival and people in the audience they laugh, that's way more valuable than ooh, you got this award or whatever, you know, because there's like five million awards that you can get. Well, okay, okay, you know what? I I will say I got uh I got I won an audience choice awards for for a student film that I directed. So that was that was cool.

Speaker 2 30:24

That's cool. So for you it's more important that you get the emotional reaction.

Speaker 30:28

Yeah, or you know, like when I did these this commercial that I talked about, like when we when we were shooting it, I knew if it I knew immediately, and everybody knows immediately it's good or not. We know it. And when you shoot a movie, you also know if it's good or not. That's like the value has to come out of yourself, you know, it can't come from other people. So that's why I feel like the it doesn't really mean anything. For me, it's I need it I needed awards. It's I'm good that I got awards. I needed awards to get my artist my my work visa for the US because you have to prove you're so fantastic. So that's why it's important. Otherwise I wouldn't I don't think I would have ever even submitted anything because it's it's just a tool to get jobs, you know. But all your self your self-validation can't come out of something like that.

Speaker 2 31:06

Beautiful. Thank you. That's really bring you back. Uh were there any movies when you were growing up that you were fascinated by and had inspiration that you want to be like that?

Speaker 31:20

Yeah, you know, before I answer, I will say studying film production ruined the movie experience a bit. You know, it's it's kind of that's that's the sad thing about it, you know, because now it's really the problem is now for me to get lost in a movie, right, which is what you want, the movie has to be really good, you know, and and everybody, all the departments have to do a really good job because otherwise you notice it and I start to look at it as, oh, this is how they did that. You know, so that that's rolling his eyes. That's that's the problem. Uh what really made me want to study cinematography, I think, were all the movies that Roger Deacon shot. And I it's it's become almost a cliche to say that, I think, because he's like the messiah of the cinematography. He he revolutionized cinematography during the last 30 years. The the art the art of cinematography is it's not to make an image look good. You know, that's what a lot I think a lot of people get that wrong. It's not about making a movie beautiful, it's about being invisible. It's about making a story so that the audience can get lost in it. And that doesn't mean necessarily to make it beautiful, it means shooting it in a way that gets uh makes people feel the emotion that you want them to feel while staying invisible. A good movie, but uh all the crafts are invisible. You can't see the writer, you can't see the editor, you can't see the DP. You know what I mean? So uh, you know, there those will be movies like uh The Big Lebowski, uh Bart and Fink, uh all the Roger Deacons movies, I will say.

Speaker 2 32:48

They need to cry, it's okay. His eyes are watering.

Speaker 32:52

He's the best, clearly.

Speaker 2 32:53

I love that. What would you tell someone who feels they're talented but they keep hitting walls?

Speaker 32:59

I mean, I think I think it's what I would tell myself too, is you gotta you gotta you gotta do the networking more. It's it's horrible, but you have to do the networking, you have to meet directors and you have to go have coffee with them and talk.

Speaker 2 33:13

So what do you do? You go to coffee and you you bring your laptop and you say, Hey, look at this, or how does it work?

Speaker 33:17

Uh I think it yeah, I mean you can't be right, you can't you can't be too obvious about it, right? Because because it it's it's a funny thing. It's like everybody knows this, but you're not allowed to acknowledge it. You know, so like if you're a first AC or second A C camera assistant, uh you will write me, you will look up DPs uh in whatever city, and you will maybe you'll find me and you will write me, hey, do you wanna do you want to get a coffee? So you will so that person will invite me on a coffee in the hopes that I will hire them as a freelancer on the on a project. And it's kind of the same thing, you know, because who gets who picks the DPs? Usually it's it's the director, or at least the director makes a recommendation. So who do we have to who do I have to invite for coffee? It's the directors, right? But it's a chain of coffee. Exactly. And who do they have to invite? They have to invite the producers because they need the money to do it, you know. And the producers who do they have to invite? They have to uh they have to invite the studio executives who gives them the money to do it, you know. So it's a never-ending, never-ending thing of coffee invitations. That that's the other thing you have to know. Like, if you want to be in this industry, if you're serious about this, and and it's film, it's not videography, but you want to do film, you obviously you can't do that in North Dakota, right? There's not a lot of choices where you can go to. Like, because the film industry is so tiny, you know, it only exists in certain cities. So you gotta go to a city where it exists. If you are an American, you gotta go to LA or you gotta go to New York or Atlanta, because that's where they go to shoot. And if you're in Europe, you gotta go to one of the big cities. Uh I don't know what's in Australia where they shoot things.

Speaker 2 34:47

Who knows? I can't help you.

Speaker 34:51

But you know, you gotta be willing to go there. That's kind of a gidden.

Speaker 2 34:55

And looking back, what do you wish you had taken more seriously earlier on?

Speaker 34:59

So I think the smart thing for me would have been go to go to film school right away. But I will say this if I had done that, A, I don't think they would have taken me, because they don't like to take people who are 18 and have no life experience. And B, I think if you want to do storytelling, and that's what this job and all these jobs actually are, storytelling, you gotta have some life experience to even understand what you're talking about. And you know, that's you don't really learn that in school, right? You learn that by having a curve or by meandering, you know, and and living a life and making mistakes. You know, that's how you can actually become an adult, I guess. Uh, you know, and and that's when you can start understanding stories and telling stories, you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 35:42

That was very summer camp fire, dude.

Speaker 35:46

Yeah, give me the guitar.

Speaker 2 35:48

And what do you think matters more long term? Talent, consistency?

Speaker 35:53

Um, you know, this is depressing, but I think the talent unfortunately it doesn't matter that much. I think in this industry it's just way more about discipline than about talent. And it's for any of the jobs that are in this industry. If it's camera assistant or a gaffer, you know, the chief lighting person, or if it's DP, direct photography, or even directing, you know. These are all things that you can learn. And it I don't believe that it really requires talent. I mean, yes, sure, if you were an outgoing person, it it's easier to become a director because you're not scared of talking to the actors. Because that's what I didn't like, you know, when I had during the directing classes. It's like, now I have to tell this person that the performance was bad, right? But I have to do it in a way, so that's the challenge, right? I have to do it in a way that it doesn't make them self-conscious. They shouldn't feel that I thought it was bad. And I have to use verbs and not uh adjectives to make them do something differently without them feeling my dissatisfaction.

Speaker 2 36:50

I see why you're behind the camera now. Right.

Speaker 36:52

Yeah. And actors always need that feedback, you know. So you all it's not like you, if you're a good director, I would say, you you're always giving them a feedback and you know how much you have to give them.

Speaker 2 37:01

So Why do you keep doing that with your fingers?

Speaker 37:05

I don't know, it's getting into their mind. You know, it's it's i directing is playing mind games with actors. That's really I think that's really what it is. I think a lot of people when they go to film school and they just get started, they think directing is to tell all the departments what to do. No, no, no. That's why you get good people in the departments, they know what to do. Your job is to tell the actors what to do, because they might see the script very differently from you. And that's actually a hard job to do. And so uh I lost lost my train a lot. What was your question?

Speaker 2 37:35

And when you look at where you are now, what part of your journey surprises you the most?

Speaker 37:40

When I look at my grades in high school, my worst grade was in fine arts. It's the one subject that I got a really bad grade grade in. And then I I ended up having a Master of Fine Arts. That's the strange thing. I want to go back and show that teacher, you know, and look, look, I got a diploma. I go, good for you. Well uh Yeah. When you're when you're young, you you don't realize what what it all means to be self-employed or what any of these careers like to me it's crazy that in in like in Germany, for example, when you're 16 or 18, basically you decide what you want to do for the next 30 years. Make that decision. You have no idea what it means, you know. You're so unprepared for it. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I'm rambling. Well, it's called rambles and shambles.

Speaker 2 38:23

Exactly. Exactly right. And do you see yourself in the industry for the next 30 years?

Speaker 38:29

So if the industry exists for another 30 years, yes. I will do this job as long as it exists. I really I I I love the job. I love when I'm actually on sale. I don't love the networking part, but I love the shooting part. So yes, I'll do it as long as I can.

Speaker 2 38:41

Well, thank you very much, Janice. Thank you. I'll now shake your hand and say goodbye. Bye bye. Thank you. Get some talking milk.