SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, this is Rambles and Shambles with Honour. Today I'm chatting with Darren. The first time we met, I was shocked to find someone who talks just as much as I do. He's been a theatre director, a counsellor, three-time mayor, and now CEO of Gippsland Climate Change Network. But before we get into that, if your family had to tell me one story that explains you as a child, what story would they choose?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

They'd probably chat to you about my ability to talk. My youth was always about my mouth getting me into all sorts of trouble. So if anything, my family remembers all those reports that said Darren talks too much in class. I remember even in year 12 they gave me a special desk off to myself so I wouldn't have anyone to talk to. But uh so I've uh it's weird now because in some ways talking, communicating is what I do. It's kind of my it's kind of my life. So um I'd like to go back and tell those teachers that they should have encouraged me to talk, not tried to stop me.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

I love that. And were you the youngest eldest in your family?

SPEAKER_01 0:58

No, eldest in the family, three boys. So, you know, like all eldest, you've got to kind of work your parents, you've got to teach your parents. All eldest ch child have to lead their parents in the right direction. I hope I did. Yeah, we had a good family life. I was uh my parents were great, they looked after me, and and and I guess I'm a product of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Do you remember the first time you realised you liked being in front of people?

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Oh look, I was always a bit of a show-off, and and I realised that was that was kind of my my thing, which is weird because these days I actually don't like being in front of people. Like I think like all people whose job it is to be kind of in front of people all the time, you actually really enjoy those quiet moments. You enjoy just being home by yourself. I like my own like my own space, I like being by myself. But at the same time, you know, I I admit that I've I've probably quite good at at talking.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

So other than getting a separate table in year twelve, were you a little bit cheeky, well behaved? Did you like studying?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, no, I didn't. I've always liked studying. I was look, the problem I had was that I started my dad was a school teacher, my mother was a receptionist, and I think they were both working. So they got me uh in school at four and a half. Starting early was great, and I I could read and do all those sorts of things. I remember being, you know, quite a you know, I was quite a clever kid, I guess, in some ways, and but I was always very immature, and particularly as a boy immature in year 11 and 12, and there's so many boys who are immature in year 11 and 12, and I was one of them. And the problem it is, it doesn't seem like a problem at four and a half, but it seems like a problem when you're kind of um 17 and a half and you you're you're in year 12. And so you tend to choose maths and science and nerdy subjects like that because maths and science are kind of really easy. You don't have to give extended answers to emotional problems, you don't have to kind of question things, you just have to come up with the answer. And that was a bit sad, really, because weirdly, after I left school, it was writing and my love of literature and Shakespeare and a whole lot of literary giants, which kind of really really enthused me. But but I was so immature in in years 11 and 12 that I never really picked up those subjects. If I had my time again, I would have done literature and and really studied the classics, but you know, that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

You liked math and science because they were easy, did you?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Yeah. I I believe most people follow the the path of least resistance. In in your earlier days, you are very much sort of directed into things that you're you're kind of successful at. So if you're I found maths and science really easy. Uh, you know, not I you know, I wasn't a genius or anything, but it was just Made sense. It made sense. And so therefore you tended to move in those sorts of directions. And whereas it's later in life you kind of look back and you think about what you actually enjoy more so than what you're good at. And and I probably didn't have that maturity when I was in year 11 and 12.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Some people never get to that maturity.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

No, they don't. No, they don't. They just kept doing what they like. You know, it it needs to be joined with, you know, a bit of an understanding of how you can grow as a person and be emotionally balanced. And I don't think in year eleven and twelve I was emotionally balanced. You know, maybe I'm not now, but I'm I'm feeling a bit better about myself now than I did when I was that age.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

When you finished year twelve, did you know what course you wanted to study or?

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Again, part of the least resistance, I did science. So I went on to uni, did uh four years at university doing an honest degree in applied mathematics and meteorology, and then got a job at the Bureau of Meteorology, which I hated. So uh so it was kind of my dream to get into this job to to do study climate and meteorology. And then when I got there, I discovered it really wasn't for me. And it was then that I kind of took a step back and went on teaching. I taught for a a number of years until I kind of discovered where I wanted to go.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

So what was it about that job that you didn't like?

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Oh look, I think it's the I think it's the bureaucracy of the place and maybe it was the people around me, you know, and you do get a sense at university that you're kind of doing things at the cutting edge. Like you feel really good about the science and you feel really good about working in a cohesive environment and the intellectual sort of study of it all. And then when you go to the public service, which the meteorolog Bureau of Meteorology was in those days, it was very much, they said to me, Oh, good news, Darren, you're a meteorologist, you're gonna be a meteorologist, and then you'll spend four years sweeping the floors and getting coffee and um and doing these little charts, and then then maybe you'll become a meet Met three, and then you know, you'll spend another five years, and then maybe you'll become a Met Two. And you kind of look at your life, kind of, you know, that it really was gonna take 20 years for me to be in a position where I thought I was already, that is understanding and being able to influence my world. And I and look, and maybe it's I was a bit self-centered, maybe it's still my immaturity playing with me, but the idea that I was just going to be in this kind of subservient role for years and years and not really like I'm you know, I enjoyed the weather. I liked I liked the I liked the discovery of it. I just didn't just didn't want to colour things in.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah, I understand that. Charts are fun, but not for Yeah, no, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

And not that I don't mind that you need to take a step back and work at something before you get to you know, I wasn't getting there going always, how come I'm not the boss? It was more like I didn't see any challenges in the role. And I wanted something that really challenged me and intellectually kind of drove me. And I think when I got my first job, I just didn't see those things, and maybe I didn't have people around me that were kind of encouraging me to stick with it. I just didn't see any future in it. And plus I've always had like I was very much into sports, I was very much into the theatre, and and the problem with the Bureau of Meteorology, it's like the the weather's 24 hours. I don't know whether you've noticed, but it goes for 24 hours. So you've got to work nights and you've got to work on weekends and you've got to work, and I don't mind working, it's just that it really would play havoc with my kind of other commitments. So there's a whole lot of things I didn't didn't just didn't settle, and and I left after a year.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

So how did you get into teaching?

SPEAKER_01 6:26

You could talk your way into a private school without a teaching qualification. I had a degree in in mathematics, but I didn't have a teaching qualification. And in those days, you could talk your way into as long as you were doing study to become a teacher. So I I remember day one, I was standing in front of a classroom of year 11 and 12s, and I didn't have a teaching qualification, so it was really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Fake until you make it, Darren.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Exactly right, fake it till you. But I was like able to talk, well, I don't know how I talked my way into this, into this thing. And I took my way into somewhere in sale, because I was living in Melbourne at the time, and then went down to um to the Catholic College there, and I wasn't Catholic or anything, but I must admit I had a huge respect for the brothers in the in the and I hadn't I had never been part of that before, but they really kind of, you know, really mentored me really well and gave me a bit of an understanding. And what I really enjoyed about the the Catholic school was not just the study of of stuff, because I really I quite enjoyed teaching maths and science, but it was also like social activism, which which I was really always I've really been interested in. And so the Marist brothers kind of gave me a sense of social justice that I really enjoyed. So I you know I spent the next seven years off and on. I I did travel for a whole year, but but I really sort of found myself in with with the Marists.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

I love that. Did not see that coming. What a plot twist. Yeah, uh I really appreciate that. It was great. Yeah. So I really enjoyed stalking you online. Uh-oh. Yeah, yeah. And I found that you had a company. Oh yes. Um, in the theatre. At some point you moved into performance and theatre. How on earth did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Yeah, well, I was enjoying doing what I was doing and I was teaching in sale, and that was really great. But it was I have always had a passion for theatre, and and I've been doing shows since since I was old enough to realise that I could stand in front of a group of people and show off. I became really kind of connected to that. And it's one of those things that you you take a risk. And I took a risk in a long time ago, but I took a risk and I quit my job and I said, I'm going to become a performing artist. And so probably for the next 25 years, I toured all over the place doing shows and doing doing really well. It was it was a great life. It still is. I was really, really fortunate that people who are older than me saw some promise and really helped me along on my journey. Yeah, and I was able to tour around doing shows. And I've I'd done one state the company did like 350 shows a year. We were about the 2010, we were doing about 350 shows a year, not just in Australia, all over Australia, but also in Southeast Asia. We used to travel over Southeast Asia, done shows in Beijing and Singapore and all that. It was really, just really exciting. And lots of communities. So you go into a community and and they had a story they wanted to tell, and my job was to write write their story and to perform it, which was great. I mean, it was really exciting.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah, it sounded. But how does one go driving into work and decide I'm gonna quit my job and not join the circus, but kind of join the circus?

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Yeah, it was it was very much like that. And you know that you reach an age in your life at which that it's impossible for you to make change. Like, you know, when you're married and you've got kids and you've got responsibilities and stuff, you kind of you kind of get locked in. And I was sitting there at the school listening to teachers who had been teaching all their lives and quite enjoying it and thinking, oh, I'm safe here. This is a great, safe environment. I mean, after seven years, you've pretty much, you know, I I knew the course really well. But you go to the staff room and you know, and they'd say, Oh, you know, only another three years to long service leave, and and oh, you know, only another ten years until I retire. And you realise that people's dreams and hopes and aspirations were locked into going on long service leave or retiring, and you're thinking, I do not want to spend the next 40 years of my working life thinking about the time that I can quit it. So I decided that I wanted to reach out on this job that I thought I could do, and that was to perform and to write stories and to work with communities, and and I gave it a crack. It was like, you know, it was dangerous. But you're right, I was at an age at that stage where I didn't have too many commitments. I was financial enough that I could take that risk.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

And what advice would you give to someone driving into work right now, listening to this podcast, to be brave to make a change if they want to?

SPEAKER_01 10:36

Well, I think I mean I mine was a bit radical to go from from doing something in science and maths to do something in in you know literature and and English and and theatre writing and stuff, which is of course I never did. But I mean, a lot of people make changes in their lives. And sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, but what does it matter? It means it give it a crack. You know, I just think life is short. Like you can't you can't live a life at which if you are sitting there thinking, I can't wait for another five years until I get long service leave, that's ridiculous. You should be thinking, is this is this job challenging me? Do I feel really satisfied in what I'm doing? Do I feel there's a future for me here? Do I feel that I'm growing and developing as a human being? And if you're not, then do something about it. I mean, I I I get annoyed that people get upset and angry at their lives and yet don't do anything about it. Just do it. Just just say, I'm not gonna put up with this, I'm gonna quit my job and I'm gonna give it a crack. Because it's weird. The first ever big brother that ever had happened on Australian television, one of the leaders, they they asked her when she won, said, What do you think? And she said, I'd rather regret the things that I've done than the things that I have not done. And it's kind of a motto that's lived my life. I'd rather regret the things that I've done than regret the things I have not done. And do not be a person that sits there all their life going, geez, I wish I I wish I'd played in that band. I was always a good guitarist. Why didn't I form a band? Why didn't I work with this community group? Why didn't I learn this? Why didn't I do that? You know, I'd I'd much rather get to the end of my life and look back and go, you know, I did a whole lot of crazy things and some of them didn't work, but I but I gave it a crack. I don't regret giving them a crack.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah, I absolutely love that. Do you have a favourite show that you wrote or kind of experience?

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Uh, look, there's a whole bunch of them. Maybe, maybe one of them was uh I worked with a group of uh adults with intellectual disabilities, and I worked actually with them for 21 odd years. And I always remember this one story. There was a guy, I can say his name, I think, Drew, because I have a lot of time for Drew. And Drew, Drew had a fairly tough life and uh clearly had a a lot of so many abilities, but probably wasn't seen that. And I was remember packing up from the show, because we did this show every year. We used to have about 400 people turn up to this show that they'd all put on, and it was great. I was working with groups of people who had never been on stage before. Some of them had very limited verbal skills, and all of them had some level of disability, which made it very they weren't necessarily doing this sort of stuff all the time, but they really, really enjoyed it. It was their chance to kind of shine. And I remember Drew came up to me at the final night and I'm putting away the chords, and Drew said, Darren, Darren, I want to talk to you. And I said, Look, Drew, I'm really busy, I've got to put this, I've got to put these things away. Darren, I want to I want to talk to you. And I said, Oh look, Drew, I'm just I'm mate, I'm just anyway. He said, No, stop. And I said And she said, he said, look into my eyes. And so I looked into Drew's eyes and he said, This is the happiest day of my life. And it wasn't my best show and it wasn't something that I'll do again. But but the ability to kind of change people and transform them, particularly people like Drew who had a pretty hard life and had never had a chance to be on stage and perform. Even today I feel very emotional about that. And uh and yeah, and there was a number of cases where because we're really the theatre was one thing, but to me the ability to kind of change people's lives and to give people a differing view of themselves or their society was the kind of the thing that made it really exciting for me.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Yeah. And was there a time where things didn't go well?

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Oh yeah. Yeah, many times. You know, many times I look back and I learn I learn from the experience. But that's there are times where it's tough and there are times where things don't work well, and there are disappointments. But again, I'd rather regret those disappointments and just not do them at all. You can live in a safe space where nothing ever happens to you, but that's not a good space. You need to give it a crack and understand that there's going to be setbacks and because you need to learn. Like I when I made this decision to quit teaching and to to do other things to become a performer essentially. Join the circus, run away, join the circus. Uh, you know, uh you know, I I I had to learn a lot. So I had to, you know, I had to I had to start at the bottom. And that's tough. I I I've been really overjoyed by by the things I've been able to do over the years.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

And when things do get tough, what do you do for yourself to kind of bounce back?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Uh, what do I do? Um, look, I mean we all need to admit that we all suffer from times at which our mental health is not very good. We need to understand that and recognise it. And there has been times too where I've sort of sat in bed with a duna over my head for, you know, for far too long. So you do need times to kind of and you need to understand that, you need to refresh. You need there are times when you when life is is hard and you need to um you need to flow with that. Like sometimes you just need to give yourself some time and recover from that. You know, because the black dog is always there, and uh and you just need to kind of confront that, look after yourself, and then move on. And there are times, and that's great. Everyone's got those days, just got to bounce back. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, yeah, you know, when you first you know, have really things that don't work, you get you get really depressed and you start worrying about that, and then you've got to you've probably got to then understand that okay, I've got to I've got to spend some time with myself, I've got to, I've got to get over that, I've got to talk to some people, I've got to talk it out. I'm lucky I've had some really strong friends with me, family that I've been I've been able to talk to. And I'm not saying it happens all the time, but with it with the good times comes the bad times. That's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

You've got to know yourself and be kind to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

You've got to be kind to yourself. That's really it's a good point. Be kind to yourself. Recognise that those times exist and go with the flow. Just look after yourself. Do you think that theatre helped you later in politics and community work? Oh hell yeah. I think um I think a lot of people are quite shy and that they find it difficult to kind of explain things. I mean, uh politics is what show business for ugly people. And uh and and it's perfect for me. Like uh it's the ability to kind of to take a platform or to take a principle and to explain it to people is really important. And and I guess my people used to say when I was when I was mayor or whether I was a councillor that I would come sometimes pull on the kind of theatrical nature of it all, and you can you can overdo it a bit. But at the at the same time, and so you lack a bit of sincerity, but at the same time, that is what a politician's role is. It and at the end of the day, a politician's role is to advocate for their community to get what they want done. And to do that, you need to be able to explain yourself and explain why it's important. And I think the theatrical side, my ability to kind of tell a story uh is essential for my politics.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

To be or not to be the mayor. When you did become the mayor for the first time out of the three times. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did it feel strange or did you just get on with it? How was it?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

I it felt pretty strange, and it took me a while to kind of have the confidence to do that. I'd I'd started it weirdly, because I was in a country area, I was quite young and and I was in a in a council with a whole lot of older people that seemed far more experienced. And I also often say to new councillors, look, it's gonna take you a few years before you get the handle of it. Because anyone can be a mayor after a year, that's easy, but you won't be very effective because the system will just you don't understand the system. But I was really fortunate that when I became mayor, I I understood the system pretty well. And so you're able to affect change because you know, you know what they're gonna that you know how they're gonna try to stop you, or you know who you can call on to help you to make things for your community happen.

SPEAKER_00 18:03

And how did you go from being in the community to wanting to represent the community as the mayor?

SPEAKER_01 18:07

When you're working with community members, I you could see that change needed to happen, or you wanted to advocate for them. And I was very much about social justice, about the environment, about a whole lot of things like that. And I think sometimes you need to step up. And I'm actually a great believer in politics, and I know it's kind of the Australian thing these days to kind of, you know, politicians are all that. But to be honest, it's not the critic that counts. I I believe in that in that thing very much. It's not the person sitting on the sidelines going, those people don't know what they're talking about. That's ridiculous. You've actually got to get in there and get dirty. You've got to get in there and you make the case. You've got to sit around the table, you've got to make your point, and you've got to argue the reason why that needs to happen. It's really easy to sit in the cheap seats and have a crack, but if you're not prepared to actually stand up and and and do it, then then just I don't care, you know, get away. Politics is uh is can be a really important uh weapon in a sense. It can actually make change. I I believe that. I believe in it, and and yeah, it's got its problems, but but if you don't get in there and try, then you don't deserve to criticize it.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

For someone who wants to contribute or try, but they feel they're not qualified enough or not good enough, what would you want them to know?

SPEAKER_01 19:21

I believe in knowledge is power, and I believe you have to learn. You'd be amazed at some of the people who are in politics who have got stacks of confidence, but don't but don't have any like idea about what's going on, you know, in my opinion. You know, don't be worried that you somehow miss some qualification that you need to be able to. The good thing about qualifications is it it endows you with a confidence to go out and crack it. If you're if someone says, Oh, you're a political major, then you feel like, oh, okay, therefore I can be the mayor. But but in actual fact, what you need is to be a decent person who's honest, who wants what's best for their community, who has a reasonable brain that can can decide right from wrong. And that's really all the qualifications you need. I've seen people who've had no schooling, be great politicians. It's about honesty and responsibility and having a crack more so than qualification.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And what changes when people stop seeing you as Darren and start seeing you as the mayor?

SPEAKER_01 20:16

I I kind of get on with people and I quite like them. And I don't like them thinking of me as the mayor, although one of the things I did when I was mayor, which got me a bit of criticism, and I'm probably right, was I bought I'm I was really keen on those mayoral jackets and stuff, you know? Of course you were. People used to call it Darren's dress-ups. And I go, yeah, okay, okay, I'm dressing up in the gear, all right? And people used to criticize that. But I go, but a doctor dresses up in the gear. You know, if you go into a doctor, you don't see them wearing like jeans and a t-shirt. You see them in a, if you didn't see them in a pharmaceutical garb, you'd think there's something wrong with them. If a trade comes to your house, they're not wearing a fluoro vest, if a priest isn't wearing a collar, then you don't think of them as a priest. I was doing citizenship ceremonies, which to be frank, is the most, is one of the most delightful things that a mayor can do, is that you in in endow upon people their ability to become Australian citizens. And in that moment, it's it's real they've made a huge commitment in their lives to move from their country of origin and to become an Australian citizen. So for them it's really special. And oftentimes you stand next to them, they want your photo. Can we have a photo with the mayor? And I kept seeing these photos of these people standing next to someone in a suit, thinking, it looks like they're standing next to an accountant. And uh, and like, and and I'm thinking, oh, they've put them on their mantelpiece. So I'm thinking, no, no, I've got to wear that, I've got to wear the garb. You know, I've got to wear the garb. Because it's about, it makes when they when they show this picture to their friends, there's them sitting next to some goose wearing the garb and it looks like a mare. It looks like a mare. Do it for the do it for the photo. Do it for the photo, do it, but do it for you know, I I'd like to think that's what I was doing it for. I never wore it like I never wore it in, it wasn't as if if I was walking down the street to the milk bar, I was wearing wearing stuff. And I'm not a big one on mare or chains and stuff. I just thought as a mare, you needed to look. Like a man. And that means you've got to wear a bit of the garb. So and that I thought was quite special. So I used to turn up to citizenship ceremonies wearing the gear, and people would get their photo taken. And for that, and I was hoping that for them it was a chance for them to kind of that there was somebody official that was giving them their ability to become an Australian citizen. I will say, one day, which kind of demonstrates something about Australia. One day I was getting my photo taken with this with somebody who was who's just become a citizen, and they turned to me after we had the photo and they said, How much do I owe you? And uh and and they were quite serious about it. I guess in in their particular country they'd been to. If you were if there was an official that had done something for you, then they'd expect remuneration.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

So you're like, that's two dim sins and a sauce and roll.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

That's 30 bucks. No, but it anyway, I I will tell you, citizenship ceremonies are are fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

What part of being a mayor looks different from the outside, but is actually very emotionally or politically difficult?

SPEAKER_01 23:06

So the political difficulty in all situations is pragmatism. All right. So the greatest gift I think a politician can have is pragmatism, and that's the one people do not understand. That is, you believe passionately in a particular thing, and and the other side believes passionately in the opposite, and you have to f get in a room with a whole lot of people who think differently and find a third way. So you need to find a matter of compromise which does not necessarily compromise your principles, but perhaps waters them down to an acceptable state that the other side will listen to. I know that's all sounding like political words, but that is the reality. You cannot live in a world where one side says black, the other side says white, and you just fight and fight and fight and fight, right? That is not going to work. You've actually got to find yourself a middle ground. And it means that some of those on the left need to go, well, okay, we can we can live with this. And some of those on the right need to go, yeah, well, we can live with that. And you find a point at which you can all live with that. Now, people on the outside, particularly on your side, will go, hang on, hang on. You you said that there's no way known you would do this, and so on. And look, and sometimes in that compromising situation, you may, you may have made mistakes. And I won't pretend that I always found the perfect third way, but that is the tricky point. That if you want politics is about finding solutions to complex problems. And and again, the critics on the s on the side seats can look at this and criticize, but there are so many wicked problems in the world. You know, and I look at that in the climate change network, you know, things like, you know, renewable energy rollouts and things like that. That it is not, it's not a simple system. And anybody who thinks it is just doesn't understand. There are compromises you need to make. There are things that we're not there yet. We need to, we need to be pragmatic, we need to find a third way. And and as mayor, that was the trickiest thing was to find that third way.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

So, what made you keep going back to wanting to be the mayor again?

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Because you can make real change in the community. Again, it's easy to be somebody who doesn't do anything. But I was I really look back quite proud. I'm part of a team. The good thing about being a mayor is you're not it's different in Australia. The mayor doesn't, you don't have a you you can't just, you know, you can't just do things. You've got to there's a team of people. You are the first amongst equals is the is the term they use. So you've got to work with your council team. So you and you so you're sitting there with nine people in a room, and again, you've got to you've got to make sure that you listen to nine different views and find a way forward that all nine of you are going to be comfortable with. Or there's a rule of fives. Five, you've got to find at least five that agree with you. Sometimes you can't get nine. You try, but you sometimes can't you you've got to get five. Then you can do things, you can make things happen, you can do anything. And and you can create positive change for your community. I love my community. I think it's fantastic. There are so many people who are, you know, who are great people, who are trying their best, who are working in community groups, and they need their council to be with them. And if you can, if you can support them and encourage their dream and make things work, then it's it yeah, it feels good.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

So now moving to Mr. Official Counselor.

SPEAKER_01 26:06

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

What made you put up your hand for the council in the first place? Was it one issue, frustration, slow build-up?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

As I always say, you know, it's very easy to be a critic, but you need to at some stage go, I'm gonna give it a go myself. And and I often say that of people who have criticizing me and probably for good reason. You've probably got a good point, and why don't at the lex election you put your hand up and have a go? And um you can make some change happen. And and I do get frustrated. There are people who get on council and then you know they they kind of, you know, they sit back. I always believed that um that I could make things happen. And I'm very proud of a bunch of things that the team did while I was there.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Do you remember your first council meeting and thinking, what have I walked into?

SPEAKER_01 26:46

Yeah, well, I I I do remember all that. In those early days I was I go to ponytail and I was quite young and and I used to come I that was my chip on my shoulder and I was going to show these old people what it was all about because they didn't understand. I probably if I think properly, I probably wasn't as good at it in my early days as I was towards the end. There is experience does count for a lot in everything and um and I had to learn what what I didn't know and I got a lot better.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

So if you could sit down now with your ponytail version self, what would you tell them? I tell them just to in just to calm down.

SPEAKER_01 27:18

Just to calm down. Just you know, look just listen, listen, watch, learn, say your piece, but don't don't get you don't have to do, you don't have to change there's not a revolution here, you know. And I think most importantly is to listen to those you disagree with. Listen to the other side. Because that was another problem I have. You do go into council with a feeling that I know the answers to all the problems, but you then need to listen to people on the other side because you've got to accommodate their views. Um, well, not always. Sometimes you need to tell them no they're wrong, but but you want to you need to understand what the other side is saying, and you need to either have a damn good reason why they're wrong, or you try and accommodate their views into your into your ultimate package.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

And what's your favourite thing to argue about?

SPEAKER_01 28:04

What's my favourite thing? I'm actually really like arguing. I argue about anything. I'd argue I know I've seen that a little bit. I'd argue about the ability to have an argument. I look these days I tend to like Facebook's terrible, although it's kind of my my my evil passion right now, is that I like going on Facebook arguing with people. Because um it's just what I like to do. Look, I the I think I just like ignorance. I think I think people who who don't listen to the data, you know, there's a whole bunch of things that it that groups of people, you know, just have some weird reason because they've been on Facebook, they think they're experts. That really frustrates and makes me angry. I just think look at the data. Uh argue with me from the data's point of view. You've got to argue the data with me. Don't argue because you are you somebody said something to you, you know, you know, wind turbines catch fire. Okay, well, show me where, tell me where, what are they? What why do they catch fire? Why do you think they're gonna, you know, why EVs are bad thing? You know, you get a whole lot of people who react to things like that, and that frustrates, and I hate that. Yeah, it gets it gets me annoyed just sitting in the room thinking about it. The room's getting hotter. It is, yeah. I'm just thinking that I'll just I don't need to get I need to I need to type something.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

You used to go and click dislike on a Facebook.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

I need to dislike somebody tells me that EVs are going to explode. Okay, I need that. So I don't like that.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

I'm here for that. I I fully agree with that. So, how do you talk to someone about climate change without making people feel like they're lectured?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Well, that's a good point. You for for one thing, and this was a big thing where I come from in Gippsland, is that you firstly you need to respect what's happened previously. So we have a number of people who worked in the coal-fired power station. They are not evil. They are they worked their guts out for and delivered energy for the state of Victoria, low-cost energy, which made our manufacturing um hum. And they need to be given some respect. I believe that it's time for us to move out of coal-fired power into renewable power, but this is a part of an evolution. And the workers that worked in coal-fired power aren't the enemy, they're actually part of the solution because we're going to need workers moving forward. So the first thing when you're arguing with someone is to understand where they've come from and don't criticize their cultural background. So, for people, particularly in the La Trobe Valley, they need to be treated with respect. They've worked hard, and now people like me are coming in there and saying, well, you know, we're closing down your coal fired power station. We need to understand that's a traumatic experience, and we need to understand that we need to treat those people with respect. That's the first step along the journey. So understanding where people come from is really important and respecting their position, then to use data to explain what happens next.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

And what have you learnt about trust from working with people like that or communities where people have every reason to be skeptical?

SPEAKER_01 30:46

You say you've got to respect their point of view and not just attack them. So I I see too many people, particularly on my side of politics, criticize people just because they share differing views. They're allowed to have differing views. Um what you need to do is to convince them. It's up, it's up to us to do that. And so we need to show them through the fact that climate change is real, we need to show them that that there are solutions in renewable power. And there are some things that renewable power can't do. And and and that, and particularly right now, that this is going to be a transition over the next 10 years, that we're part of an evolution, not a revolution, and that we that we need to be respectful of that. So I think the greatest strength in this conversation is just respect the person you're talking to, understand that they have their commitment to. I mean, we had the nuclear debate within our region, and I think the nuclear debate's really interesting. Just because somebody advocates for nuclear, some of my friends are going to switch this podcast off now, but just because they have a just because they advocate that nuclear doesn't make them evil, it just, it just, it just that yeah, that's right. It's a point of argument at which the two of you can make. It's a nuclear is an energy form like anything else. It's the question is, is it the most viable for Australia in its current situation?

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Mr. Burns would say, yeah. Exactly. Mr. Burns would say it's absolutely fine.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

But Mr. Burns has a few problems. He hasn't thought about the water, the toxics, and stuff. Yeah, issues. The fact that it's going to take 15 years to get one of them up. So, you know, and so you need to make that case. But you you don't make that case by saying, Oh, you're an idiot. You're an idiot. How dare you say that? Oh, you're just buttered, you know, you've been convinced by some other side that's ridiculous. You need to listen to what they're saying and to come up with a reasonable excuse and and treat them as a human being.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

So you spend a lot of time around public meetings, community forums, and difficult conversations. What tells you that a room is actually listening?

SPEAKER_01 32:34

It's really funny because uh we used to run these sessions at a lot of coastal communities were like that, and they would scream. They would yell and scream and call you all sorts of names. This is ridiculous, you're ridiculous, you've got no idea. And you'd have this thing that they were screaming at, and then and then afterwards you'd all stop and you can have a scon and a coffee with them, and you sit down and have a chat, and oh gee, that went pretty well, they'd say. So understand that when people are in a mob, it can be a lot different to when they're individuals. So what you really, you really hear what somebody's thinking when you have a proper chat with them. And I've been in meetings where they've been the you the yelling has been peeling the paint off the walls. They've been incredibly bad. And that's fine. They're respect that you respect that view. You just need to kind of put up with it. That's that that you look, if you pay your rates, this I'll tell this to everybody, if you pay your rates, you've got a right to ring your counsellor and tell them they're, you know, that they don't know what they're talking about. You know, that's your absolute right. And request scones. And request your scones and request that that person listens to you, because you whether you voted for them or not doesn't matter. It's about you pay your rates and you live in their community and you have a right to tell them what you think. Now, you then as a counsellor, it's your obligation to listen to what they have to say. And you may not agree with it, you might explain it to them, but you need to respect them and respect their points of view. So when do you learn that they've changed their mind? Uh look, it can be, it can take the passage of time. Um, you know, cultural change isn't going to happen in a meeting. It's actually going to happen over time. This is the beauty about being old. You know, this is one of the beauty. I look forward to it. You know, I look forward to it. You've got a long, well, long, long way to go. But me, I can look back and I go, I remember ten years ago having these sorts of arguments. And now, 10 years now I'm having these sorts of arguments. Like I'm telling you, I I went I went to meetings 10 years ago where they were debating climate change. I I went to, oh, what was that lunatic who traveled around Australia talking anyway, it doesn't matter. There's a whole bunch of I think we've actually moved on as a country. I think most people, 70% old people, if you look at the statistics, believe in climate change and believe in sustainability. They believe we should do things cleaner and better. You know, that argument has been made. And this is the beauty about being old, is that you see that if you make the argument over time that eventually we reach a point at which which it you you do start to get change, but it takes time. You just you've got to work at it. You know, people think, oh, look, we'll just put out a press release and everybody will believe us. I know. It's it's ridiculous. It actually takes time. You've got to keep turning up. That is rule one of politics. Just keep turning up. And eventually the people who are against you, they kind of go, oh, well, he keeps turning up, so we may as well just listen to him. And he has a cool outfit and he had a cool outfit. And it only cost us 30 bucks to get a photo taken with us. I love it. Yeah, yeah. So you do that. Just keep turning up, and eventually you you can sense that people's positions have changed. And look, and your positions might change too. You know, I I think I've evolved from when I was first a councillor to where I am now. There are some issues of which I think differently now.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Have you changed your mind about anything because of a community conversation?

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Yeah, absolutely. I think, and look, I mentioned that thing about um about coal-fired power stations in the past. It was very easy for my young Darren to get all like, oh, you know, this is terrible coal. It's just terrible. You shouldn't be burning coal. And uh and you shouldn't be burning coal. But at the same time, the people who are doing it, that's not their fault. And uh and they deserve every respect. And I probably didn't lean into that as much when I was when I was younger. I should have I should have led with that, and I never did. And I I'm sorry for that. Yeah, so it look, there's there's probably tens of little things that I've gone, oh yeah. Because somebody comes in there, if you listen to them properly, you can't it actually can change a view and and you can advocate. That doesn't mean you're a weather vane. There's a beautiful quote in um in John F. Kennedy's um uh Profiles of Courage where he talks about people being blades of grass and they just go with the wind. And I really hate politicians who go with the wind. And you can see so many of them in today's thing that it that that people are yelling for something, so they go, Oh yes, I believe in that too.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

When you've spent years being visible in a community, how do you protect the private part of yourself and your family?

SPEAKER_01 36:48

I mean, I'll say this people have always been very, very respectful. I mean, I f I feel I just I get more respect than I deserve. I mean, yeah, sometimes when you go into the supermarket and you just want to you just want to buy your noodles and go home, you know, you do there is a person who'll stop you, and even even if I'm not in council anymore, they'll sort of stop me and they'll say, Oh, you know, what do you think about this? And it it's your you need to listen to them. But at the same time, most people are pretty good. If you go in for the right reasons, I think people treat you with the respect. I've I've always found, as I said, I think I get more respect than I deserve.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

What do you know now about people, work, and change that took a long time to learn?

SPEAKER_01 37:24

You you kind of get continuously surprised by how different people are. You do kind of live in yourself a bit and you think that what the life that you've had is the same life that everybody else has had. Sorry to be a bit of a quote man today, but you don't understand someone until you've spent some time in their shoes. Yeah, that's one thing to remember is all people are different, that they've they've gone on different journeys. You know, I I I've had a good life and it's really good being old, being able to look back on it. And I think that if I could one other message I can give to people is don't be scared about being old. You know, there are some things now at which it's really nice to be a little bit older, and you can kind of, you know, but there is a getting of wisdom that I think I'm not suggesting that I'm incredibly wise, but I think that experience does count. And I think I really enjoyed like I remember being young thinking, oh my gosh, when I was gonna hit 50 or something, and I hit 50 a while a while back. Um couldn't tell, couldn't you? Yeah, that's good to tell. But you know, I thought, oh, that's I that what that's ridiculous. How I'm just gonna be awful at that age. But there's some exciting things to look forward to to everybody is thinking about age. It is actually really exciting. You do get a wisdom and an understanding, you get an understanding of yourself and what you need to do. You realise the kind of symptoms of the time when you need to stop and kind of take care of yourself. You need to, and you get a and there are things in your life that matter more than when you are young. Like I I can't believe, I can't believe how important family is to me now than it was when I was young. When I was young, young fella, immature again, maybe I didn't really care too much about things like that. But my my my wife and my daughters, you know, are really important to me. And I I wouldn't have thought that when I was 20. But now I now I now I'm really it's so good being able to share their lives and see see their journey. It's really so yeah, so anybody who's sitting there listening to this, look out for being old. It's it's awesome. It's awesome. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Well, thank you so much, Darren. Thank you. I can't wait to see these photos.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Well, it's it's it's been an absolute pleasure. Long time listener, first time podcaster. You know, it's just it's been a pleasure to be with you and and to listen to you. And and thank you so much for giving me the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

I shall now shake your hand and say goodbye. Goodbye. Goodbye.