SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hello, this is Rambles and Shambles with Anna. Today I'm sitting with Milana. I first noticed her in the office because she had the best red lipstick, and I thought, yep, definitely from the same neck of the woods. She's a smart cookie, very stylish, but today I want to talk about the person behind all of that. So, Milana. If I called your mum and asked what was she like as a kid, what would your mama say?

SPEAKER_01 0:25

I was lucky enough to have parents who provided me with very nice and peaceful childhood. So basically everything was around starting for me.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So I was um probably a kid who always was telling the truth to adults. Sometimes, yeah, putting maybe her uh into some awkward situation. Yeah, man, we were even sitting with somebody, some of her friends. Uh I don't know, I I I used to be quite, you know, blunt and honest.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Used to be. I think you're still pretty direct.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Even though, yeah, most of Australians would definitely say that I'm still very honest and straightforward. But I'm trying to push it, make it softer and silky. Nothing's so super like interesting. Um no problems, no issues really.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

So when your mom had friends over for coffee, you you complain about the outfit or how many sugars they put in their coffee.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Yeah, maybe I can share uh uh can share a story. Um Rakia is very popular, and especially in the 90s when I was a kid, everybody enjoyed a glass of rakia every so often, right? And um my uh grandma had a friend who was stopping by from time to time for a glass of good, high-quality rachia. That um from time to time sometimes became quite often. So I already knew as as a small, very small kid that guy is coming only for a glass of rachia and not for a chit-chat with my grandma. Um, one time when I saw him coming, um, I was standing in front of the door and was saying like this, no, no, no more racia, you can go home. My grandma was so embarrassed. Yes, um, and he was embarrassed as well. I guess I'd like to make people feel embarrassed because they were not on their best behavior. Or for instance, when we were going to the seaside, and um my mom and her friends were enjoying in a few puffs of smoke, nothing um like all the time, it's just part of the you know culture and society. And what I used to do, I used to collect the the boxes from the from cigarettes, and then I I used to have a small bag. I used to collect them, and I told them that I'm collecting that for uh for the purpose of playing or for the game for my friends when I come back home. And then when we came back, when my father asked, What did you do? And you know, everybody was like, We were yeah, enjoying sun and you know, sea and everything. And then I showed up with my back, I opened the bag, and then I said, Here is the proof of what they were doing. I said they were smoking. My father used to be like uh very against smoking and uh he was very yeah unpleasantly surprised, and my mom was also unpleasantly surprised because she was embarrassed because of her friends who were there, and I was like, Oh my god, we wanna keep it down a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

I love it, it's always telling the truth. I understand now. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yeah, well that's yeah, part of probably my education because they they raise me like that, you know, to be truthful and be careful what I'm doing and the consequences of all our actions. So yeah, always the honesty is the best policies, um, Australians would say, right.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Do you have a thing that you were obsessed with when you were a kid? Like something you would do for hours, play with or do?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Well, I used to spend a lot of time outside, playing with the kids from the street. Um, so we used to ride a bicycle a lot around the neighborhood. During summer, I pretty much enjoyed that activity. Playing with the dolls and um carts, for instance, were very popular uh during winter because especially when we uh didn't have electricity because we were sanctioned and um 90s were when I was growing up in Serbia were very tough. So cars were very popular during winter, so yeah. So in primary school, what were your favorite subjects? Well, yeah, maybe art. Yeah, art. I used to like to draw. So some of my drawings were exhibited in local exhibitions. So I won a few awards locally and engaged in literature activities. So whenever there is some reading involved, or maybe even writing a few things, uh like essays or something like that. Um, but that's that shifted when I went to grammar school. So basically I was good good at all subjects, equally good. Maybe music was not my friend.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Uh not your friend?

SPEAKER_01 5:04

Yes, um, music and maybe physical, physical activities. So sports. I can't say that I am a sporty type of person, even though I I I uh trained swimming when I was in primary school. But I guess I didn't like that physical effort, so I was a little bit lazy. I'm st I still am physical activity. Yeah, and when I came to grammar school, uh yeah, everything shifted. So I I discovered uh that I really enjoy maths and physics, chemistry, because everything is so clean and exact, truthful. Uh-huh. So it is or it's not. So it's very uh very rewarding when when uh you get to the end of the task. So way forward from uh that satisfaction is engineering, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

So were you competitive or were you more stealth mode trying to do well?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

I think that I can be sometimes competitive, probably that coming from that desire background to be top performer always. So yeah, I was fighting to get uh good marks and uh good grades, uh scholarships to compete and trying to be equal to the top ver performers. Yeah, especially at uni, yeah. I would say that was the case.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Where do you think your love for education and I guess your drive to want to be a top student, where do you think that comes from?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

It comes from home. From the way how I was raised, yeah. I think that's come from my parents.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

So did your parents push you into school or just talk about education as a way?

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Um I can't say that I was pushed uh by my parents regarding anything. If they were they have been always very supportive and supported me in whatever direction I wanted to go. But certain things uh were n um nicely presented to me in a nice way, how what what are the good things and what are the bad things so that I can conclude then what's really good, what's not good, and they were always supporting, yes, my desire to progress in life.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

And when you were in high school, what did you think your life was going to look like?

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Uh yeah, well, totally different than it looks uh now. So, yeah, from time to time I do ask myself about that. So when I was in grammar school, I definitely didn't know that I will move to Australia and start uh or have a life here.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

So did you enjoy the student life of university, or were you more just focused on getting through the degree and focusing on studying?

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Yeah, I was really enjoying it. I can't I when I look back, I think that the that period, those five years that I spent uh studying electrical engineering was the the best uh the best part of my life. I really enjoyed the studies, the subjects, uh the flexibility that you have at uni. So if you want to attend a lecture, you can attend. If you don't want, nobody will ask you why didn't you come. It was all based on on your program or your schedule. So it wasn't like so strict like in grammar school or primary school. I used to hate that, that you always have to have a justification if you don't come to school that day. So the that flexibility really I found it the best and it helped me to enjoy actually while progressing to the end of the studies. And that was a calm period as well, like from uh private life point of view. So there were a lot of parties, uh new people from all parts of Serbia and Bosnia. Uh so it was a multicultural uh environment where I could uh meet other people, which I really enjoyed actually. And it was really good five years. So, how did you get your first job? I was uh lucky enough to secure a scholarship to uh one uh company. I was lucky enough that that was a multinational company present in all countries, almost all countries in the world. Yeah, thanks to that scholarship. Uh so I I had a secure job and I finished my master's. And um, yeah, that was a good thing, but also a bad thing because then you're bound to that company, so you can't go anywhere else. You have to first uh serve what they gave you, serve back what they gave you while you were studying. It's not that some that I really needed from money point of view, I can't say, but it was more coming from that desire to be a top achiever because the the top students all signed that scholarship, and I wanted to be the part of that as well. Can't say that my parents fully agree with that approach. They were like more like, please finish your first what you started, and then we will decide where is the best place for you to work. But that was purely my decision, for instance. I really wanted to be part of all that, especially that multinational dimension of that company and the exposure that that could have given to me from that uh international point of view, meeting other people, working with other countries. So I really like that concept. Uh so that's how I uh secured my first job.

SPEAKER_02 10:09

And what shocked you the most when you started full-time work compared to uni?

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Those are two separate worlds. Uh so one thing is to go to uni and test your exams, get the grade, finish uh with that, go move on, go to the next one. When you are working, then there is a totally different dimension of work ethics. Uh, the tasks and goals are totally different. What shocked me most is actually um are actually people who worked there and uh the way how people think. It was totally different than what I used to know or what I used to be accustomed to when I was going to school. Maybe living what I discovered later that I maybe was very lived a very protected life because also that can be attributed to the fact that I'm the only child. All the attention and all the care and um everything protection was around me, so I was not exposed to the schemes, to the lies, to the manipulation and different um goals that certain people can have. So that was shocking, that discovery that not everybody is honest. Because I was always starting when I was that was my approach when I'm meeting somebody new, is that that person would uh act in the same way as I'm acting. So that that's how I used to approach to the situations that we are gonna approach from the same starting point, but the reality is totally different.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

Yeah, reality can sometimes be a rude awakening.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

Yes, that was uh that definitely those uh first few years for me when I look back were yes awakening again.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Were there times in the first couple of years where you felt like you wanted to quit or leave because of certain people? Or or was it more just learning that this is how a professional industry functions?

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Well, like I suppose the combination of both. The bad thing in Serbia back then is that we as an engineers we didn't have too much choice. There were like two companies privately owned, which were providing uh, let's say good salary and professional career progression. So there were not so many choices if you were not happy with your current employee to jump to another one.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

So that was a limiting factor. It's not like here in Australia, that's what I've discovered here when I moved, that you have a choice. Uh there I would say that back then when I used to work, uh that choice was quite quite limited. So sometimes you just had to, you know, do things even so we yeah, and suck it up even if you don't agree. It's your bread and butter, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

And what do you think helped build that resilience? Because if you have to suck it up and you're limited.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yeah, it does. It does build build resilience, uh which is a good thing. Yeah, so that's like if you're gonna sink or swim, yeah, you met me and one of the first uh one of the first things you said to me that you love, that I'm so resilient. Well, yeah, that's that can be attributed to that difficult environment and uh challenging situations that I experienced in my professional life in Serbia.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Was there a person at work that really helped you in the first couple of years or helped you in a situation? Or a friend outside of work?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Well, yeah, well, I was lucky that I um maintained a close relationship with other people from um my uh university who did not study power engineering, didn't were not in the same working for the same companies I used to work, and also my friends from grammar school. So um yeah, I was lucky enough to have that different perspective and uh environment where I would isolate from the hectic professional environment. For instance, that was my um safe place where I used to go and chat about things that were bothering me, and then after a while, after a good uh few days, then I come back fully refreshed. I used to even forget what was bothering me three days ago. Yeah, that was the thing what really um really was helping me to go through, for instance, some of the difficult days, but on the other hand as well is to share the happiness of some of my, for instance, achievements in again in an environment which has a totally different lenses than the one where I used to be most of my time, because most of our time unfortunately we spend at work. Especially now when I uh when I moved to Australia, I I'm lucky enough that I still maintain a close relationship with them, and that uh that is also helping me a lot.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

So, why the move to Australia?

SPEAKER_01 15:02

I um I fell in love in Australia first time when I came here. That was back in 2012. I was um on a project to deliver a company here uh in Australia in Canberra. It was first few days were shocking. Uh I remember it was such a such a lifetime experience. So first the trip was 40 plus hours, and and then when uh when I landed, uh so the sounds were completely different than I used to know or I used to experience in Europe or United States, northern part. So the sounds were completely different. So it felt for me like I came to another planet. First few days I really had that feeling, and not only the sounds that the trees were different. We don't have eucalyptus tree, there gum tree, we don't have there. So that nature and uh was totally, totally shocking for me. And back then internet was not very uh good at Australia in Australia, so on top of all that I stayed without internet the first few days, so I couldn't communicate with my family and my friends, so I was literally isolated on a planet of Mars. So yeah, I I wanted to go back. Uh like I wanted to leave everything in a in a week to remove my flight. I was supposed to say three weeks first time, and I came here, and I was like, how will I survive here three weeks? This is this is horrible.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

I said, Where did I come to this bush Mars planet Mars? Uh I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

And then um slowly, slowly, so then I I I went to the workplace, met a few people from Australia here, and then I was shocked, uh, but positively shocked, uh how people, how engineers actually, my peers, live and work here, how how human conditions are and how they put their personal life at first place rather than their professional life. So work won't go away, work will stay, but your personal life will go away. So that's one of the main reasons why it's so laid back and relaxed here, and um and uh the way how they achieve things is completely different than how we uh achieve things in Serbia, but it's in a more human, I would say, way. So that I I that I've really, really like when I was uh at the end of my uh my stay, first day, I was like, oh my god, I don't want to go home. I like it here, I like it a lot. This is this is great. Uh I I really like to live I would like to live a life like this. Um but then I came back home, so then I was busy with other things, and you know, Australia was kept coming back to me, so I was coming and going to Australia many times after that. Again, uh based and because of work, but I was staying for um for a long time, for instance, one time I say almost two months, uh so yeah, I I got to experience more and more of this beautiful culture and uh uh get to know this beautiful country and I just grow the the love for it over the years and um also that was the the situation I um met uh your alien on this planet? Yes, my alien is this planet, if we can put it that way. Ah, I like it. So that's uh when I decided that uh yeah I would like to give it a try and start living here permanently. And also the when I moved, there was a COVID outbreak. Like a few months after I I moved, really, I mean the whole world was closed. And not long before that there was a big bushfire as well here in Australia, and I got to know how this natural phenomenon actually can shape uh Australian life and how uh it's it can be devastated uh and impactful. So I can't say that that was the best time to move, but um yeah, I went through all that and uh now I understand uh the difficulties around some of the natural phenomena.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

So, what's the thing that you love most about Australian work culture?

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Well, um it's uh all about the journey. You spend way too much longer at consultancy. It's all about the journey.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

So the co it's achievements are important, of course, but it's the way how you get to the result, or it's the way how you achieve something. Back in Serbia and the culture there is only what you achieve is important. How you are gonna achieve it, uh that doesn't matter. So it doesn't matter. Whatever you have to do, just do it, just achieve it. But here it's totally different. You have to be very careful about many things and um try to enjoy uh the journey. And the results, yes, if you achieve great. If you don't achieve or you're delayed in achieving your goals, that's fine. It's gonna be fine. It is fine, and that's what was the yeah, one of the biggest discoveries for me. It's actually fine if you don't achieve something.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

What you committed to achieving. It's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

How did you adjust to that? Because you know, you've always wanted a top performer, get things done. Uh how are you managing?

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, well, at the beginning it was really, really hard.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Really hard for me. And then, you know, you just have to step back and take a little bit of time, think about different perspectives, think uh how other people thinking. Yeah, when you try to understand other people as well and um involve that personal element into the project or into the professional life, right? Then um yeah, things change.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah. I mean, I was born here and I still struggle with the pace sometimes because Journey, journey. Journey, journey is the oh my god, next, let's go. Journey's the key. Journey's the key. I need a t-shirt with that. So what kind of work gives you energy on this journey that you go on?

SPEAKER_00 21:30

I'm still uh um attracted to the results and achievements. Yeah, I was gonna say nothing's changing. Nothing changed you just saying, you just say it.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Uh I'm still uh yes, I I I really feel satisfied when I delivered something what I committed to delivering. It's just that this this uh the the Australian culture gives me the freedom to shape the journey. So yes, I will achieve, I know that I will achieve, but the journey and the freedom of shaping. that the final outcome is really the best thing. And um on top of that, you are gonna achieve what you are gonna achieve, but within um eight hours. Yeah, but and the second thing uh it's not all it's not all supposed to be perfect. So it's about the balance. Yeah when I moved here people used to say to me pick your battles. You can't focus all your efforts on uh one thing or two things and trying to make it perfect. No, actually that's wrong. You just have to make it right. It doesn't have to be perfect. Because at the end of the day nothing is perfect. That's the second thing what I learned here in Australia.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Is there a project that you're most proud of your achievement?

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yes I I'm very proud uh of my achievements through the consultancy projects that I completed especially in the area of network planning for one big utility here in Australia. That the level of engineering work that I completed as part of that project was uh at the time something most complex that I did in my entire professional life. And it's actually related to my core um engineering studies that I completed. So I'm very proud of that achievement. And now I'm also proud of plans uh for um expanding New South Wales and the way how the electricity network will look like in 30 years' time is really tremendous from professional point of view. And I'm very proud of uh leading that piece of work. Then sometimes comes to my mind so I am building the electricity network of a foreign country uh while the electricity network in my home country is falling apart. And that comes to the fact brain drain and uh how highly skilled professional people are uh leaving my country and working for foreign countries, helping them and building and shaping their future while unfortunately the future of our country is falling apart. Yeah that could be hard to sit with.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

So for you one of the most rewarding things is when things that you've studied and learned you get to see come to life and you're technically challenged.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Yes that's that's very true. I I when I moved here to Australia I uh figured out that core engineering function that I used to study I can do here. So actually I can apply my skills, my qualifications in the real life of engineer.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Yeah there's nothing more rewarding than actually being able to do what you studied that it wasn't a waste.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yes exactly I can't say that uh that was the case while I was in Serbia because the focuses uh were different um so but here I was lucky enough uh to be able to do that and when I say lucky enough that is a phrase uh but I can say that I earned everything so it nothing came out of the blue for me I uh was not given a highly profile project because I was daughter of somebody else or a friend close friend who uh parties, drinks smokes with me. So that that was given to me then because of that. No. I earned everything what I have so when I say I was lucky enough actually I earned it.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

I've been talking to a few younger people lately and a lot of them think maybe I just got unlucky with my manager. Maybe the next one will be better. And sometimes that's true. But you've worked across countries, across cultures so I'm guessing you've seen a lot. The workplace changes but humans are still humans at the end of the day. What would you like to tell someone who's early in their career about that?

SPEAKER_01 25:59

This is a big question. Yeah I'm not just um because I'm working with the graduates and um younger people and who are less experienced they think that everything should be granted for them and prepared for them that it's just especially with these new technologies and AI that everything is plug and play that it's not like that. So what you invest is what you're gonna get. So the amount of effort that you invest in certain things will come proportionally maybe not at that moment in time but certainly it will pay out in the longer run. And regarding that part with managers well my advice would be not to think too much about that and not to focus their efforts on who is their manager because at the end of the day one day you have one manager tomorrow you may have another one. So it's all about the approach what you take and also you control things what you really can control and that is you and your work and what you're gonna deliver what you're gonna how you're gonna present. Present it to the rest of the people who with whom you work but the managers that is a temporary category so it's passing. Yeah I would refrain myself from thinking in that direction so that would be my advice.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

When is the point though when you go from my manager's not great to I'll stay in the company versus I'll leave the company it's all it all should uh depend on what you really want to do.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

I would say that they should think are you happy with what you're doing? So is it engaging enough? Are you enjoying the journey? If you're not enjoying the journey then maybe that's the question what you have to ask yourself. Maybe I don't like this work. Maybe I I could try something else uh and try to find myself there. I think that maybe that's one of the most important things but companies are companies so most of them function in the same way and there is a framework right or in everything. So I don't think that it's related to the company themselves. The companies themselves it's more about what you really want to do in your career.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

And if there's someone sitting listening to this that thinks they might want to move but they're scared to what would you tell them?

SPEAKER_01 28:21

It all comes down to your skills again. For instance when I moved here to Australia so it's a different uh side of the planet couldn't move my family right couldn't move my personal all my personal belongings my properties so the best thing and the only thing what I could bring is my education uh my professional experience and my mindset and my approach to the work and to the life in general that's the only thing what I could bring and actually that's valuable even in this situation and applicable to the situation when you want to move from one company to another so what is that what you can bring from one company to another is very important. Your professional experience your degree your skill set so if you really are bringing a value and you have all this then it doesn't matter where in which company you are and you don't have to be afraid if you if the opportunity to work for another company showed up. I would say yes grab it grab it move it around it's a wonderful experience I can say again from my um experience I moved and uh changed companies especially here in Australia because here there are so many opportunities and that's wonderful I would say they shouldn't be afraid of moving companies as long as they have um the value what they can bring.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

So focus on your skill development.

SPEAKER_01 29:55

Exactly on your knowledge and your skills and then you will not be afraid at all. Yeah actually you will enjoy you will enjoy the benefits of moving around.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

So do you think your the skills that you've developed helps your confidence?

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Oh yeah absolutely the more uh you see the more you are becoming confident the more you learn the more confident you are that was my case but I don't notice people who have a lot of confidence without any knowledge I've experienced um many people like that but at the end of the day everything is so transparent even though they they with that overconfidence want to probably hide the lack of knowledge that is so visible and transparent it's screaming all around them. So don't think that certain things are not visible or that they are transparent. The credibility what you bring and that integrity is is noticeable. And one of the I must say the biggest compliments I've received here in Australia from my managers is that I'm a person of high integrity. At the beginning I didn't know what that means. And then when I heard it a couple of times then I I um yeah I realized and I was like oh but this this is great. I'm very proud of actually that because that's very uh difficult to achieve it's very difficult to achieve integrity. That was also one of my biggest achievements actually not only related to the delivery and results is actually yeah how other people see you uh is yeah important. Yeah and that takes time to build the trust and to build the trust the confid the confidence that you're the right person for the for that job that you're overachiever that you uphold your values so the consistency is very very important and that helps you to build that integrity.

SPEAKER_02 32:02

I love that I guess for the last question what do you wish someone had told you earlier about people and work?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Uh yeah so exactly that's what I've learned here in Australia. Take it easy enjoy the journey certain things will come at you at a certain time so not everything can come at the time when you want it and be patient and um yeah take it easy a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

So we now are gonna go be patient together grab another coffee thank you so much for your time tonight shall now shake your hand and say goodbye. Thank you